a afternoon we're very fortunate today
and having as guests of The Associated
Students mr. Sheldon Leonard as you all
know he's TV producer comedian director
actor among his current interest right
now as I Spy Bill Cosby and mr. Culp
he's also associated with Danny Thomas
he's gonna be speaking for a few moments
or can be very very informal following
his discussion were go straight into
questions and hopefully answers mister
mr. Leonard thank you the as we walked
in I was asked whether I had a topic for
this talk and it was hard for me to
answer that question because the topic
actually is a good word for sponsors now
this is practically unprecedented in the
the mass communication media to say
anything good about the sponsor but we
are discovering right now as we are in a
time of turmoil and change in television
we are discovering that actually the
sponsor was a pretty good thing and that
his absence is turning out to be a
pretty bad thing because television is
reaching a state in which I may soon
turn my back on it not that this is
going to cause NBC to go in the
bankruptcy or anything but because of
the color it may into the coloration
that may give our discussion I am
telling you that I'm telling you that
that I'm despondent about what's
happening in television I see no
immediate chances getting better for
years I avoided any involvement anything
but television eidetic
myself to it I wasn't interested in
doing feature pictures during theatrical
film or doing a planned Broadway or any
of the other intriguing things that one
can do in my profession I wanted to do
television I thought that I understood
it it had been kind to me and I thought
it was going someplace I think it still
will go someplace but I haven't the time
to wait for it now because of the things
that are developing as a result of the
abdication of the sponsor now let me
digress for just a moment to say that
the this loosely related the the the
what we will call my topic is primarily
intended to spark discussion later to
provoke questions from your questions
which I will undertake to answer to the
best of my ability it is that and
whatever you find provocative or
whatever you dispute and what I am about
to say please feel free to challenge me
on it later let me let me make clear
what I mean about the chaos that's
developing as a result of the
disappearance of the sponsor first of
all let me establish the fact the
sponsor has in fact practically
disappeared from television he's been
replaced by a phenomenon called the
affiliate the affiliate station now I
don't know how specialized your
knowledge of television is and I don't
know to what extent it's necessary for
me to explain things terms like
affiliates and so on I'm going to play
it safe by by giving a superficial
explanation of some of these obscure
terms as I go along and if I am
redundant if I am saying things that you
understand please forgive me the
affiliate is the station which makes up
a network is made up of affiliate
stations plus the plus a very small
number of what they call O&O stations or
owned and operated stations as a matter
of fact the only actual stations owned
by the NBC network are five I think
they're Chicago Los Angeles New York
Philadelphia perhaps one other
all the rest of the 200 odd stations
that make up the NBC network are
affiliates they are stations which
subscribe to the service which NBC
offers NBC supplies them with programs
and they pay a fee a percentage of their
of their gross income for this
programming which NBC supplies that's
what made up a network up until
relatively recently your success or
failure as a programmer the success of
failure of your program depended on what
kind of a network the what kind of a
lineup of affiliates and network could
supply to you again a digression I don't
know if it has any place here but
whenever I talk about station lineups I
remember the great fears that prevailed
when I spy one on the air when there was
a great fear that we would not be able
to get a station lineup for it because
of the presence of a Negro in the cast
they there was a deep conviction that
the southern stations would defect that
they would not take the program this was
about three years ago and at the time I
remember is telling the network people
with all the assurance of my command
that I thought those fears were totally
misplaced because the climate had
changed in the last few years I thought
they would didn't have anything to worry
about and it turned out that I spy was
the only show on any of the three
networks that had a hundred percent
station lineup the only show in which
all of these stations available all the
affiliates available subscribed and took
it this was not true of any other show
in the air in its first year and it was
in its subsequent years back from that
digression the affiliate as I say
loyally took what the station's offered
him until recently now he no longer does
so let me leave that statement where
it's where it rests for a moment and
approach it again from another direction
years ago when I first came in a
television by years ago I mean 15 or 16
years ago when I first came into
television the most important figure in
the whole picture was the sponsor he
liked your show he didn't like it he
bought it he put it on the air he went
to the network with the
package under his arm and said I'd like
to buy 8 o'clock Monday night for this
and he was welcomed with the much bowing
and kowtow and he dominated the whole
thing through him his his lieutenant the
agency the agency that handled his
account he acquired a certain reflected
glory from the importance of the sponsor
the two of them dominated television as
they had dominated radio before this the
quiz scandals started a major change in
that situation the quiz scandals
resulted in a rebuke from the FCC to the
network's who said what do you mean you
didn't know what was going on in your
network what do you mean it was a
sponsors fault that they will hoodwink
in the public and and rigging these
contests it's your store it's your
grocery store this merchandise is
displayed in you must accept the
responsibility for it and so the
network's
didn't wait long to accept that
responsibility and they pushed the
sponsor out of the area program
selection and they said we will no
longer take the programs as you bring
them to us we will tell you what
programs are acceptable in this time
spot you can buy into them or not as you
wish the first step in the demotion of
the sponsor however there was still a
few giants like Procter and Gamble and
General Foods with whom I was happy and
lucky enough to be associated and they
through their continuing influence
managed to get certain controversial
shows on the air and to keep them on the
air in the period up until now the I
have brought you to the point at which
this industry stood until a couple of
years ago in other words the industry
was until a couple of years ago
dominated by the successor to the
producer that is by the network program
executive or the network head they were
the ones who made the decisions who
decided what was going to be on the air
what would stay on the air things had
still not become bad I was content with
that situation for reasons which are now
made clear the kind of programs I chose
to do needed time on the air
they didn't come on strong I didn't I'm
not I don't believe in novelty I don't
believe in gimmicks there was nothing
highly exploitable about
relatively low-key shows that I chose to
do there success depended on being on
the air long enough to make friends
shows like Danny Thomas and Andy
Griffith and Dick Van Dyke and and Gomer
Pyle etc all of these depended on being
on long enough to create some sort of
rapport between the people on the screen
in the audience
I was successful in keeping them on the
air in spite of the fact that they all
had very slow starts because I was able
to infect first the sponsor and later
they network program people with my
enthusiasm for them and my belief in
them as a matter of fact I spy not I spy
Dick Van Dyke was cancelled at the end
of its first year this is a fact that
very few people remember people mostly
tend to remember there's one of the most
glamorous comedy shows in recent
television what they don't remember is
that it was in fact canceled at the end
of its first year because it got off as
I say one of my shows get off to
relatively slow start I'm not proud of
it's just the way it is it had been
canceled and I was successful in getting
the head of advertising for Procter &
Gamble mr. a halvah stead to go along
with it and to renew it for a second
year and he said and I remember his
statement almost verbatim at the end of
a long harangue after which I during
which I had been down on one knee
singing mammy and doing the whole bit at
the end of it he said well I'll go along
with it I said well I'm glad that you
believed in the show as I do he says no
I don't believe in the show I think it
should be canceled but I believe in your
belief in it and that was good enough it
got on the air it had a chance to make
its mark and all the shows I don't wanna
duplicate the example because I'm the
same kind of thing happened many times I
in a case of one brief duplication a guy
had an almost similar experience with
the president of the NBC network in case
of I spy I told you before about my my
belief that would get a station line up
the man who accepted that belief was mr.
Bob Kentner who's in the president of
the network and I spy went on the air
because a person a specific person would
accept the responsibility for making the
decision
I'm happy to say that he accepted that
responsibility because of the influence
I was able to exert on him as a result
of our friendship in our previous
background and any rate he did accept
the responsibility a worthwhile show had
a chance to have a career recently
during this season which is still in
progress I put a show on the air called
accidental family I believed in this
show very much by the way forgive me if
it sounds pretentious but I believe in
many of these modest little half-hour
shows that I do because I believe that
they each in their own way carried
television a step further in its
evolution towards a worthwhile
theatrical form and I believe by the way
that television was getting their
television is better perceptibly better
it's getting slot was getting slowly but
perceptibly better as a result of these
advances as a result of the fact that
sponsors and presidents were making
decisions that went against the the the
ratings and the numbers occasionally
there is after all still on the air a
show that represents the continuing
influence of one of the few sponsors
left in the business the Bell Telephone
hour is still on the air
because the managers of the account
believe that there is a public for good
music and the the numbers aren't
terribly important they whatever cost to
them they're going to continue to give
good music to the public until the
public catches up with him well a few
surviving examples that kind of
procedure but when accidental family
went on the air last fall last September
in my opinion it represented a forward
step it was a show about a divorced
woman who was living with Amanda and in
a home with a man to whom she was not
married and the children knew about how
babies were born they didn't know any of
the fictions about cabbage Leafs and
something the girl lived on a farm and
was able to tell the other young the boy
in the show quite literally what
happened or
as literally as our vocabulary permitted
and they everything wasn't pure and and
sweet and sometimes a kid could hate his
parents without anything worth shaking
world shaking happening and this was
believe me
a modest advance in television terms
died I don't mean to say that this was a
cataclysmic change but it was the kind
of minor change by which evolution
occurs it was a kind of thing that I had
been seen happening in television with
some enjoyment was the kind of thing
that made me consider television my
career
well accidental family was canceled
canceled very abruptly because it was
opposite of motion picture because it
did not yield an immediate return
because it wasn't The Flying Nun or some
other gimmick that caused people to tune
in out of curiosity because it required
a little time to grow it required people
to say hey did you see this show on
Friday night tune in and it's worth your
while it required the time that takes
and the network could not give up that
time any longer because the affiliates
deserted in a pack the affiliates are
trembling on the brink of us desertion
always because of the phenomenon that it
now represents the monster that is going
to drive me out of television rather
eventually feature pictures feature
pictures came into the situation now the
affiliates could program feature
pictures just as well as the network
they didn't need a network to feed them
feature pictures because they're
available in syndication you can buy
them and lots of a half a dozen from
many merchants who peddle amount of
suitcases or other sources you can get
as an affiliate you can get all the
feature pictures you need there won't be
as fresh and there won't be as immediate
as the network shows all but you can get
features you don't need the network to
play features you do need the network to
play Bonanza you can't get it you do
need the network to play iSpy
you can't get it but you don't need them
to play features therefore as soon as a
time spot didn't yield an immediate and
big fat return in terms of a viewer
audience the affiliates cancelled they
backed out and booked their local future
pictures
therefore accidental family which needed
the time couldn't get it and went down
the
therefore I look at this whole industry
now with a jaundiced eye because I do
not intend to do gimmicky shows about
the mermaid from the bottom of the sea
who comes up and becomes a suburban
housekeeper in Pasadena I do not intend
to do those things because I don't
understand them I'm not knocking them I
work within a certain frame of reference
what I do I measure as good or bad to
the degree that it relates to truth
don't take me too literally I don't mean
to say that all of these shows are
intended to be documentary but they are
intended to be illuminating they are
intended not to violate your credit of
credibility too much and because of that
I am not equipped to work and function
in a medium in which everything has to
happen right now you have to get your
attention with a startling or outrageous
statement immediately and hold your
attention by the way that's almost a
contradiction in terms
I'm not the most coherent speakers you
will have by now learn but if you will
indulge me I will sometimes follow these
these inviting and interesting byways
that open up from a statement I make it
is almost a contradiction in terms for
a show with great novelty appeal to also
to have durability by its very nature
this is a phenomenon that's very
observable in there in nature to the the
quick ripening organism is also a quick
fading organism the organism which takes
longest to matures tends to be the most
durable and this is true on television
to those shows which take the longest to
establish themselves are very likely to
be the longest in in tenure on the air
and if you want specific examples of
that we can go on endlessly about but
accept it please as a truth as it - ISM
with there's only one exception I can
think of is one I still don't understand
and that's a show called The Beverly
Hillbillies it's an extraordinarily good
show and it will go on just as long as
they choose to keep it on the air and
yet its original appeal as a novelty
appeal is this company of this group of
a hillbilly millionaires that come to
live in Beverly Hills it's strictly
gimmicky but there it is in its seventh
year and it shows every promise of being
able to go on as long as it wants to
will
about that sometime I have no answers if
you have I'm interested in at any rate I
am now I believe that the evolution the
development of the television into a
medium in which I can take pride as I
have in the past taken pride in some of
us some of its accomplishments not all
of them I believe that that development
is being arrested by the present
condition in which a show must have must
be a novelty or it hasn't a chance this
condition is brought about by the fact
that the individuals who could make
decisions have been forced out of the
business by the dominance of feature
pictures there are no long as sponsors
or network heads who can make decisions
on their own authority and because of
that I may take it and run that's the
general framework that's the the the the
what I intended to be my opening remarks
they've gone on a good deal longer than
respectable opening remarks should but
perhaps they will provoke some questions
for you from you if they do maybe we can
find ourselves investigating some other
areas of interest to you
Wow question well it would have been
vulgar for me to put it that way but the
proper way for me to put it was to say
I'm gonna take my money and run out of
television per se I have been timidly
investigating some featured picture
projects I still it is still my business
my craft I still hope to exercise
whatever skills I may have acquired in
the use of a camera on the telling the
story but I will exercise them if I am
permitted to in another area
unless something quite surprising
happens in in television in the next
year or two I give it another year or
two to make good with me
you might forgive me and I thought you
finished I didn't mean to cut you off
you might just as well say that when one
says LSD is a good thing one is taking
an opposite point of view because there
are so many reasons to say it's a bad
thing and both statements are true it is
a good and a bad thing and it is of
course both statements are true that
sponsors work good and bad sponsors were
responsible for many evils I believe
that they were in commercial television
as long as we must have commercial
television and whenever we investigate
the evils of television we're going to
come back to that one fact that one
movable fact which is that it is a
commercial enterprise as long as we're
gonna have commercial television I
believe it is better to be able to have
access to it through a variety of doors
which is what the sponsor represented
then it is to have access to it they're
only a few doors which is what happened
when the sponsor backed out and you had
to get you had to seduce Jim Aubrey at
CBS or Tom Moore at ABC or Bob Kent on
NBC in order to get on the air and if
you struck out three times you were out
of the ballpark previously before that
had happened if you didn't make it with
General Foods maybe you'd make it with
with P&G or with Buick or somebody else
yes
I hate them but I think they're
indispensable I hate them because there
should be and there are other yardsticks
let's not for the moment debate their
accuracy because that's a pointless
debate I was convinced that the World's
Fair in New York City some years ago
there was an IBM exhibit that convinced
me that the Nielsen ratings probably
have as good a chance of an accurate
measurement as anything has it was an
IBM exhibit that showed how the random
sampling creates a consistently similar
profile now the ping-pong balls of
different colors which were blown up in
the air and they fell into slots and the
slots in the middle of the area
collected more ping-pong balls and the
ones at the end collected fewer
eventually they made a profile of a few
ping pong balls at each end and more in
the center and it was amazing to see
that that random profile that random
selection duplicated itself endlessly
endlessly hour after hour and day after
day because they'd release the ping pong
balls to start all over again it would
build the same pattern this if nothing
else had convinced me this convinced me
that random sampling is indeed a
scientific way to evaluate a
quantitative measurement that you can't
get by other systems by actual
door-to-door measurement but
quantitative measurements are perhaps
one of the greatest evils of the
commercialism of television what's
happened the qualitative evaluations
you know what's happening to what's
happened to saying this show hasn't got
great numbers but it's got great quality
therefore it deserves to survive if the
same yardstick existed in the magazine
publishing medium there would be no
Fortune magazine that only be life and
perhaps time and their Newsweek there
would be none of the other specialized
publications with a specialized appeal
in there that satisfy specialized needs
but those you fortune survives in spite
of its highly specialized appeal because
there is a qualitative index it's the
medium you use in which if you want to
sell yachts you know you don't advertise
yachts in Time magazine
advertisement fortune it's the medium
you use if you want to sell high
expensive and high quality products
Scott sound systems or what have you
there is really no such qualitative
index in television and that's what I
have against Nielsen not that they are
inaccurate but that you live or die by
Nielsen and that's wrong
there should be qualitative measurements
as well yes
it takes a budget and they have to make
a feature and say six days then believe
that that TV will resume its progress
towards evolving a form of its own yes
you're quite right I don't believe in
these featurettes at all I don't believe
it's for same reason I didn't believe in
pay television which is now pretty
nearly a dead issue but I didn't believe
in it because prepaid television was
based on the premise that if you paid
more for it it would be better which is
not necessarily true you know it assumed
that as soon as more money was available
a new pool of talent would be tapped and
that's not true but I believe the
television was making its way towards
evolving a form to bring this phone out
that this matter of form into focus
permit me to point out the obvious which
was that it took feature pictures some
while to evolve their form that you
could not literally translate a play to
the sound stages and photograph it in
its on the stage form and have a
satisfactory picture it'll make certain
modifications certain adaptations the
primitive adaptations what to as they
say open it up well we've learned that
there's more to it than that
we've learned there's a great deal more
to it and that's a huge subject that we
can only go into under specialized
circumstances I don't want to you now
but it's obvious I'm sure to all of you
that there had to be adaptations to find
what cinema was what it couldn't
couldn't do and what was best for it
television is undergoing the same
process of finding out what it can and
can't do its television is now coming to
learn to understand why you're better
off with Dick Van Dyke or with Andy
Griffith than you are with Robert Taylor
or Rock Hudson they're coming to
understand this they're coming to
understand the peculiar nature of the
medium and the differences in story
structure they're coming to understand
why I can open a feature picture with a
photograph of a leaf floating down
stream and take 10 minutes investigating
the birds on the limbs before I start my
story but when I start a television show
I better get 2 people killed and three
kidnapped before the titles come on
oh you've gone someplace else they are
learning that there is a specific
difference in form they are learning
that you are watching they're not
learning they are observing and and and
gaining some benefit from analyzing the
fact that you watch television under
special circumstances not in a temple
that you go into and where you sacrifice
your individuality when you give up the
ticket you become immersed in what's
happening on the screen and I and
participated in a vicariously where you
have also made a major investment you've
got in the car of the garage and you've
driven there and you're parking you've
stood in line and if you don't like it
you have no dial to turn to get
something else you've got to sit there
while the director takes his own sweet
time and determining to tell you when
his story starts you can't afford to be
impatient with him you've got too much
of an investment with me when I start a
television show if you don't like the
way I've started it you've pressed that
remote control button five times before
I've had a chance to draw breath so I
must tell it in a different way also I
must tell it in a different way when I
realize that they're going to be five
commercial interruptions I can't expect
your undivided attention
somebody's gonna be flushing a toilet
next door right on a key line somebody
your wife is gonna call in and say
aren't you gonna help with the dishes
oh you're gonna get up for a beer or
whatnot I can't get the same degree of
immersion the same degree of
concentration that has same degree of
pure attention
Hitchcock when he told a story hid what
he called the MacGuffin in an early part
of the story them time MacGuffin if
you're interested I'll come back to it
later it's a picturesque term that she
used particularly in an early part of
the story and then disregarded if I do
that and I spy audiences are totally
confused because they don't remember
what the story is about the same point
must be made with greater clarity and
with greater emphasis and with greater
frequency in order to register on a
television audience which has diffused
the tension under special circumstances
than in a theater and so on at any rate
we were evolving towards an
understanding of these phenomena we were
evolving towards an adaptation
towards it it is hard to understand at
first at first later it's clear why
small problems what is the reason for
the durability of a show like the the
Nelsons Ozzie and Harriet Nelson the
greatest problem they have a cope with
was that the fella didn't do his
homework I think is the greatest thing
is low-key totally low-key plays and yet
year after year they went on and the
answer is of course identification the
answer is that if you watch it under
those circumstances under those
particular domestic circumstances
identification with small problems is
easier you go into that that that that
temple that I spoke of before and as
Lawrence tracks through the the endless
wastes of the desert by God you're with
him you're perspiring and you're
cringing under the heat with him I can't
no no way I can accomplish that on a
television screen I don't aim at it
there's no way I can get that degree of
identification on the television screen
no way I can make you cringe from a blow
as I could literally do with a big
screen of my command
I could literally make you physically
share the impact of a blow it's not a
tough thing either in storytelling terms
or in technical terms to accomplish
can't do it don't attempt to do it in
television in television we seek an
identification with things that are in a
much narrower range much closer to what
you understand and that by the way is
why a Dick Van Dyke is a great deal more
acceptable lighter than the godlike Bob
Taylor is he's more in the range of
experience of most people of the big
Middle America that is why it is so
difficult to make a show go with a
foreign protagonist accents are death
for powerful for mass acceptance on
television why because while accents may
be familiar to metropolitan dwellers
they are not familiar to the so called
heartland of the country there is no
identification with it
there there there is no relationship to
it and so on through many many
generalizations some of which I'm sure
have value many which is questionable
but at least we were coming to
understand that this was a special thing
we were dealing with that could do
special things and and learning how to
handle these tools that were put at our
disposal when they
invented the electronic camera yes lady
back there Dick Van Dyke went off the
air because everybody was much too
successful Dick Van Dyke Show was a
special kind of success it was a big
prestige success as well as a financial
success it led to offers to to dick dick
was making I don't know if the I trust
that I'm speaking off the record here
because I'm speaking with the freedom
but I prefer to use on the assumption
that whatever quoting is done will be
done in academic environments not in the
public press and with that assumption I
proceeded to say dick dick was making
out of the Van Dyke Show at the greatest
point he earned something like ninety
five thousand dollars a season which is
not to be sneezed at but that's on the
basis of something plus three thousand
dollars per episode plus because when we
got dick he was he was a very reasonable
actor he was not well known and I think
we started him as something like 2,000
per episode something in that area I
don't remember the figures accurately
anyway they served illustrate my point
as he became popular Disney offered him
a picture deal where he was to make in a
where he was guaranteed three hundred
and fifty thousand a year minimum
guarantee but Disney and was still free
to go take pictures elsewhere dick is
now making I would guess he's grossing
10 gross is important because there are
many subsidiary expenses that dilute the
gross very substantially but dick I
would say is grossing for his personal
services somewhere in the area of a
million and a half now per year Mary
Tyler Moore was often an immediate
contract with review also at a similarly
spectacular increase in price Carl
Reiner who was the producer and head
writer on it was offered a picture
career again at more money for less work
so as soon as their contract Linda the
when you draw television contracts that
drawn for five years after that you have
to renegotiate them so when the contract
expired there was no chance of
renegotiating same thing of course will
be true with Bill Cosby when his
contract to eye-spy expires as a
possible chance of renegotiating it
because his his earning capacity is far
far beyond anything that that we can
offer him or hope to achieve for him in
television yes
hola all I can express are my hopes for
it I hope that it can be a very
important and very well managed and very
well administered aspect of television
because as a visual a that's television
is incomparable I don't know the field
too well it is at present are for the
great part in incompetent hands and so
it will - will have to go through
transition periods but I hope it becomes
very important no matter yes a little
luck a lot of planning a lot of
ingenuity our success with location has
been the result of a lot of pre-planning
great deal of pre-planning violations
many many concepts of the violations
many rules renew rules first rule that
we disregarded was that I bought scripts
before the show was bought before the
show was ordered in order to be able if
I spy as renewed next year and right the
moment these decisions being made in New
York I trust it will be renewed its
certain problems in the way of its
renewal it's not as easy as it might
seem because there are available time
spots I don't want to go at 10 o'clock
at night anymore there are very few
earlier time spots available and we're
going through that that's not your
problem but we I buy even even though
the show is not yet renewed I've already
invested something like 90 thousand
dollars in stories for next year these
stories are being broken down the first
group of tennis o pertained the
locations in and around London a few in
and around Edinburgh in Scotland a
couple up in Copenhagen they are bought
they are being broken down location
manager even before the shoot show is
renewed we'll have to go into these
areas and select the specific locations
and make the commitments and engage the
people who do the
preparation work for us all of this in
order to make it work so advance
preparation particularly advance in the
matter of story is terribly important
recognition the fact that none of the
old rules hold is also important there's
nothing wrong the increased use of the
hand-held camera has made locations much
more feasible willingness to compromise
in the purity of sound is also very
important readiness to use sixteen
millimeter one 35 millimeter will do it
is also important but all of these
things are again the result of a
revision of values see most of the
values that television carried over were
values that were established for
theatrical film the rigid tripod mented
mounted camera is part of the theatrical
film concept well you've got a wide
picture and that much the most mind you
vibrations in the camera just from
holding against your heartbeat will
cause enough vibration in a handheld
camera to show up on a big screen
because that minut microscopic variation
that occurs as you hold the camera here
becomes my mm magnified and there's
something perhaps two feet in scope on
the theatrical screen and it was true
that this is a bad thing disconcerting
on the whole unless used in special
circumstances sound in the in the
theatre bad sound background traffic
noise in the background very
disconcerting but on the television
screen hey you've got more variation
when somebody turned on electric shaver
next door so to be excessively concerned
about that was foolish sound again
looking at it as most of the country
does with outdated badly serviced sets
they were getting more interference than
we could build into the pictures so to
respectively so to prospectus
prohibitions were self limit was a
limitation that we didn't have to
observe so we went out and we shot it
where we could get it we held the camera
in the hand when we had to we did with
traffic noises when we couldn't
eliminate them we we used ingenuity and
we used some of my people use an
incredible amount pure physical courage
to get pictures it's been oh god such a
challenge it's such a rewarding
experience to in many ways but we've
learned a lot and I I welcome locations
is it the most difficult ones I love
yes probably not because pilots are
usually a bad form of storytelling the
best form of storytelling for my dough
is the kind in which you start with a
provocative subject or statement and
then proceed to develop it in doing a
pilot you've got to do it in a very bad
you've got to explain who everybody is
and where they came from instead of
spending your time telling the story
once your series has started you no
longer have to tell it the hillbillies
had a lot of oil and they came here to
Beverly Hills and they look through ours
and they said that you don't have to
tell that all over again
they do as a matter of fact with the
introductory song but that's not
necessary you know long have to go into
those details but in a pilot you have to
go into all the painful elucidation of
background the details in your story
doesn't get started go somewhere is like
two-thirds of the way through in
addition to which it has become
increasing the practice to sell
assaulted mine in the case of a pilot to
take a pilot and where a series budget
is going to be perhaps $80,000 on a
half-hour show to spend as in the case
of Rat Patrol up to four hundred
thousand dollars in the making of a
pilot then it is just misrepresentation
which would not be permitted in other
commercial areas to take that pilot and
go in and say this is the kind of show I
intended to deliver to you each week I
don't know well many reasons it's
amongst them yes sir
don't think we haven't coped with that
question many times but the only way I
can answer you is by to examine the
terms in which you ask that question I'd
I'm not aware that I said that I won't
have anything to do with things that
that don't have a high degree of
feasibility that term is relative and
also flexible and feasibility is a term
which I don't quite know how to use I
spoke of keeping things in a framework
of credibility which perhaps serves the
same purpose and again that framework of
credibility is an elastic one which
expands or contracts according to the
subject again use the example of spy who
came in from the cold at one end of the
spectrum and James Bond at the other end
of the spectrum you have different
frames of credibility now that would
seem to be a cop-out answer except for
the fact that what I'm going to say now
is the total answer which is that my
connection with Gomer Pyle is a
third-generation connection I did not
choose it it is a necessary connection
because of the fact that it evolved from
The Andy Griffith Show which in turn
evolved from the Danny Thomas show I was
the creator and manager of the Danny
Thomas show as a creator of The Andy
Griffith Show I was not the creator of
Gomer pile but Gomer pile was a an
offspring of Andy Griffith and therefore
I retain certain proprietary rights in
it by contractual references none of my
creation nor do I accept any major
responsibility for it we'll accept the
responsibility for good taste and
certain other areas but as for that
aspect of credibility that's not I don't
consider that my problem yes
I said the affiliates I came down to the
affiliates not the network so it's an
important difference forgive me for
interrupting you but it is an important
difference
I I corrected you because I thought that
your question was going up the garden
path as forgive me it has I made a point
of the fact that they were they
affiliates not the network's tell me
with terms are such dangerous thing
what are networks networks are a
combination buildings on Rockefeller
Plaza and people in offices and
typewriters and various other things
comes down to people that we're talking
about and now the affiliates are
individuals no individual has the power
to make a decision just like no one ant
can strip a carcass to the bone but an
army of them can and the same thing with
the affiliates no one affiliate can make
have any alien for influence on policy
but they totally the the aggregate
number of them has an enormous of
influence on policy so since there is no
one person to make the decisions I think
that answers your question yes I'm not
entirely sure because that was a CBS
situation and and since my early days
with Jim Aubrey I have not been very
close to CBS I didn't have a my room was
a stormy relationship with mr. Aubrey
but I'm now I'm pretty sure he did
that's the way it would be yes it would
be like that yes
I do think so you mean on the air the
question never entered my mind I've
never never evaluated in those times as
to whether they would have literary
merit I'm sure they have but they are
just not a TV form TV deserves the time
and the opportunity to evolve its own
form no I hope maybe my career will be
involved in theater theatrical film and
features but I I don't believe that
that's the right form for television yes
no I don't I don't know anyone who's
qualified to make them they would be
accepted very rapidly if they were
provided but I don't know any I'm making
a half-hour show is a very difficult and
demanding thing which demands skills are
quite rare becoming rarer and I don't
know I wouldn't be able to put together
an organization that could make a
respectable week after week our comedy I
wouldn't know how to
yes
give you a generalized yes generalized
only because I would not want to be so
specific as to say the most creative
area certainly one of the more rewarding
areas is the documentary in the proper
use thereof yes certainly yes yes I hope
so I think so yes
now I must reject an assumption that's
implicit in your question I don't think
it is failing to meet its
responsibilities towards communications
I think it has done very well in that
area and in communications in in letting
you in on history as it's happening
I think Siddhant very well I think it
will do better I think the area failure
is in the entertainment area the two are
not the same although they use the same
apparatus to exist they are really very
distant cousins news current events and
communications and entertainment they
are not the same having a present effect
right now it will have a long-range
effect I think that involves certain
technical understandings that may not be
appropriate for this kind of a meeting
it is like likely to lead to the
disintegration of the networks and to
the therefore greater importance of
syndication that is the daughter
distribution have to look for an analogy
which may be more in your experience it
may have the same relationship to
broadcasting that the divorcement of
production motion picture production
companies from theater ownership had
some years ago it changed the whole
pattern of picture making it increased
the number of independence increase the
importance of exploitation and diminish
the power of the individual produces yes
I think it's a pretentious term used in
this context perhaps I refrain from
using it because I respect it so much I
think I don't know yes on the cinema
frequently the expression on the screen
has approached an art form in my opinion
I don't recall anything in television
that deserves that accolade
when we use the term art means something
different I guessed everyone who hears
it and perhaps we better define it
I'd like to differentiate it from
storytelling you know good storytelling
could be I suppose at a certain point
could deserve to be described as odd of
course
Shakespeare was an art artist a great
artist as a storytelling many others are
but I don't think that storytelling in
any form that I have seen it on
television was of such extraordinary
power such extraordinary merit as to
deserve that term I'd say I believe that
in order to aim for art in television we
would have to forego commercialism I
don't think the two are compatible maybe
a cynical conclusion I don't know I
don't think so
NEC would try but there again you come
against one of the sordid paradoxes of
the show business see the well-meaning
people of NEC don't have the talent the
talent is in the commercial theater
talent is well paid for television goes
with talent goes where the money is
talent talent doesn't go into any T if
it can do better talent doesn't come
into any of the areas of our business
that doesn't have to unless I was about
to say a terrible thing I'll pass it
are you about to call television a
gimmick I thought you were I thought
that's what you got I don't believe it's
any more of a gimmick than the telephone
is or than electric light is I believe
it's it's an essential and by now
essential part of our culture I believe
it will be essential worldwide in our
time I don't believe it's in any sense a
gimmick I don't understand
Marshall McLuhan I'd given him every
chance to make good I just don't
understand I think he's an enchanting
word manual user but I don't know what
are you yes most playhouses our
Playhouse and anthology starts out with
an enormous advantage it has unlimited
scope you don't have to when you do a
series when you bring your writers in
you start out by telling them what they
can't do say you can't do this with Kulp
and Cosby and you can't do this you
can't go in this situation we've done
that one before and you can't do the
other a lot of a lot of negative
statements but when you do an anthology
do anything the fantasy you do County do
anything you want to so it's produced a
better entertainment now it hasn't been
commercially successful because of one
of the peculiarities of television which
is it doesn't develop a loyalty to any
single person you know it's not like you
watch you went in to watch Dick Van Dyke
and Mary Tyler Moore every week you
didn't go in to watch the show or the
stories you want to watch them as a
personal relationship builder and the
anthology doesn't do that now there are
certain devices which give you many of
the advantages of the anthology and
still give you the opportunity to
develop the privilege of continuing
characters and that is the kind of
anthology that's represented by
something like wagons rain
it's basically basically an anthology
you know it's an anthology in one
predetermined and continuing environment
but still an anthology Grand Hotel is an
anthology ship of fools is an anthology
see these shows contain within the body
within the environment they go there
they provide many different stories it
is possible to do a series with
continuing characters and still to have
the advantages of an anthology but it
has not often been done
sometimes yes it was yes and no Culp
didn't have to do a lot of convincing
because I first met him as a writer and
know that he was an excellent writer I
had to do a lot of convincing before I
let him direct and then I did it not
merely to because I believed in him as a
director because it was one of the
quieter ways of keeping the beast
content a certain amount of gamesmanship
a certain amount of Disney doesn't that
Disney when he was alive did not deal
with these problems when he was dealing
with pen and ink figures it was fine but
dealing with people as you do and as I
do you come up against continual they
they they they dominate much of your
life much of your time what should be
planning I want to give as much time I'm
very likely to give as much time to
deciding what kind of accommodations to
get for Cosby's wife and his baby if we
hit some of the Scottish small villages
outside the head and borrow how we're
going to get boiled water and so on for
the babies I make it as much time to
that problem
as I do the question of whether the
shoot and a castle outside of Glasgow or
yes
I I guess talk shows were as good as the
talk the the era of good talk has passed
the era of good talk
may not reappear in our time because the
respectful language has disappeared read
some of these Renaissance plays some of
the Elizabethan some read old literature
even not even that old as recent as Mark
Twain and and bathed in the richness of
the words of the language of the imagery
and then inspect the kind of language we
use today the graceless awkward use of
the language is a purely utilitarian use
of it the language is no longer used
ornamentally as it were very few do it
the guy like Frank Baxter does it
occasions very very few who will respect
language for its beauty as well as for
its ability to communicate and until a
respectful language reoccurs there will
be not much good talk there will be a
lot of utilitarian talk as dean rusk
explains why we are escalating or
de-escalating but this is purely
utilitarian but talk for its own sake
for the sake of listening to people say
things well that is not likely to happen
again in our time
you know I believe in this business that
I've been in so many years you develop a
sense of communication voices you must
become aware of them or else you don't
know whether you're pleasing them or not
by the way that's a aspect of equipment
for doing this business is rapidly
becoming obsolete because as actors
directors and writers are get get more
and more removed from their audiences by
technology there is a gradually a
rapidly diminishing awareness of how you
communicate with audiences in its
simplest form this may seem like a very
long about answer to your question I'll
get back to them all in its simplest
form the old vaudeville entertainers
doing five a day in front of matinee
audiences and evening audiences know how
they were doing they got seven bars or
they got eight bars they took two bars
or whatnot or they died may they they
had the effect of it they weren't doing
well they did something about the act
they juiced it up and we still have
hangers from those days the Jack Benny's
and the George Burns is and a few others
then the the relationship the audience
became more and more remote when I got
into it I got into it by way the
legitimate theater and Broadway there
was still a high degree of communication
eight times a week matinees on Wednesday
and Saturday and evening performances
and you you either did well in his sense
that you the volume of your laughs the
frequency of them then I got into
audience radio here with Jack Benny and
Bob Hope the others and again you had
audiences they told you how you were
doing
over a period of time you developed this
umbilical cord and connected you with
the audience so that you sense their
restlessness or the absence thereof
you could anticipate and that preamble
my friend is the answer to how I knew
that you were gonna ask what a producer
does because I knew that's where you're
going because it's one very frequently
asked question usually is usually
prefaced by a statement of understanding
of Directors and so on what does it
producer do producer there's the same
relationship to a theatrical project but
the architect does to a building the
architect gets a concept the architect
seldom draws the plans himself but he
knows what man should draw the plans the
architect should be able to draw the
plans himself if called upon the ideal
producer should be able to fix the
script if he doesn't know who can do it
better
the ideal producer should be able to
take over the direction if the director
isn't doing what he wants but short of
the ideal he should know the proper
people to do each job and supervise
they're doing it like the great
architects
it seems to me you're not knowing too
much about architecture that the analogy
is a valid one the great architect looks
at a piece of land and forms a concept
what kind of building would go with that
piece of land communicates that concept
to somebody who can then translate it
into lines on paper then carries the
concept further to where he has gotten
the city council to adopt the funds for
it then Ken does all the necessary steps
to turn an idea into a concrete reality
and the producer under the best
conditions should do the same thing yes
there are other you know all kinds of
producers all kinds of people do all
kinds of jobs and there are producers
who merely do the signed task produces
you hire and say get me a show out each
week I'll give you the scripts don't
worry about them keep the costs down
producers who are skillful and
management and that alone I have tended
to go more with producers who are
skillful in story Eve occasion I don't
particularly care about how well my
producers manage their shows I'll get
somebody who can do that for them quite
reasonably and very good at it if they
can evoke stories if they can
communicate with writers and get good
stories out and be good catalyst towards
writers and I'm thinking of far far more
of your time than I'm entitled to and I
thank you very much
now I want to thank you mr. Leonard for
taking time out of your busy schedule
and coming here and sharing your
thoughts and ideas with us thank you